highperformanceamc

DragRacinAMC wrote:

Gremil wrote:He said the problem is the rear main is so far from the oil pump and is the last to get oil pressure.

No different than any other engine.

You're probably right about that. He seemed to think the sideways oil filters were draining back causing most of the problems in the AMC V8. A pre-oiler should solve the problem I would guess.

I know for a fact that if the proper filter is used the oil doesn't drain out quickly sideways because of the anti-flowback gasket that supposed to be in there. But I can tell you that if a engine stays shut down for a long time, like overnight, any sideways filter will drainback most of the oil. It will drain slowly through the filter media down to about slightly less than half the filter. I've watched my inline six after sitting over night and it runs for just a while before pressure hits compared to when it's only sat for 30 minutes or so.

That yellow AMC drag car that Richard Giddens owns has one of those oil system pre-charges on it. I really like how the oil pressure gauge goes up before he hits the starter. I really think when I get the next engine ready for my Gremlin I'm going to use something like that. I just can't see any negatives on that. Maybe someone knows something I don't about those systems.

I had lots of people tell me about industrial diesels that had a manual pump system where you would pump up oil pressure to the bearings before hitting the starter. So this isn't a new idea. A bit much for something like a lawnmower, but sounds great for car engines.

You're thinking of what MOROSO calls an "Accumulator". While it can be used a pre-lube, it's main function is to pump extra oil into the the engine if oil pressure falls below a point pre-set at the container. When the oil pressure recovers, the extra oil is pumped back into the can. You'll find these on a lot of the hard running S/S cars, and a lot of AMC'ers run them. A lot of the guys using them, run less oil in the pan, and use the Accusump as a back-up. I had one in my car when I ran the stroker with nitrous.

"ACCUSUMP"

I seen these called accumulators, but the ones I'm familiar with are used at start up. You turn on the ignition and a buzzer sounds. You watch the oil pressure gauge and as it reaches full oil pressure the buzzer goes off. Then you hit the starter. The ones I'm interested in are for pumping up oil pressure for start up. Some I've seen advertised use gravity to preoil the system. I don't like these very much even though I'm sure they are fine. I like the ones that push the oil pressure up. I would guess that gets oil to every part better. Maybe the word "pre-oiler" or "pre-charger" actually means the ones for prelubing before engine start up. I don't know. I believe I've seen the gravity feed ones called "pre-charger" too.

These won't help make up for a poor oil system, but would be great for start up. I was told (and this is hear say) that there are some that are electric pumps into themselves meaning they actually pump the oil. I've never seen one like this personally. Most save oil pressure from when the engine is running. It releases this pressure next start up to pump up the system. The gravity ones drain down into the engine making oil go past the bearings.

I just found one on E-Bay and it says that it's "recommended for surge control as well as pre-oiling all size engines." So these do both regulate oil pressure problems or pre-oil for start up. Here's the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Canton-2-Quart-Accusump-Oil-Accumulator-Pre-Oiler-QT-3_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ38657QQihZ002QQitemZ120202146359QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Here's something from a forum about installing one of these:
http://forums.off-road.com/jeep-mid-sized/212637-oil-accumulator-pre-oiler-installation.html

One more:
http://www.on-trackperformance.com/canton%20accusump.htm

There's like hundreds of pages on these, so I'll just post these three links. But you get the idea. I think this is a good idea for any engine. For the life of me I don't see a down side except the price.

How did I miss this thread? Sorry about that guys.


OK..... me motor.

72 360 block and heads from a Jeep. The heads have 440 Chrysler stainless steel valves, a generous amount of port work and have been cut .020". The lower end has a STANDARD (103,000 miles) crank with cheap bearings from City Motor Supply. The pistons are KB Hypereutectic 400 SBC flat top claimer pistons. I am using an Erson High FLow AM solid lifter cam (.544 lift, 244/246 @ .050), Crane Gold roller rockers from a 289 Ford, Crame Moly pushrods. The rings are cast Hastings.

Particulars.....

Block is bored .035 to use the std. 400 SBC pistons.

The piston pin bores are honed out to use the 360 wrist pins. The pistons sit in the hole .065".

The oil pump had the little groove cut below the gears to smooth the pump action (than you Ken Parkman for that tip), uses stock replacement Melling gears and STOCK PRESSURE SPRING! This thing idles hot at 20psi and goes thru the lights at 7200 rpm at 50 psi. NO TRICK OILING MODS ANYWHERE.

IMPORTANT STEP: make sure the oil passage in the center hole of the cam gear is not restricted. The Cloyes gears seem to all have a little casting flash right in the middle of it and the distributor drive gear won't get proper oil. I open it up with a die grinder and make sure all of the passage is nice and straight all the way through the gear, fuel pump cam and into the gear. Make sure the holes in the drive gear are open also. Using the oil pump mod and stock pressure spring keeps the load down on the gears and they don't destroy themselves.

The rods have had the beams deburred and polished and ARP bolts installed.

I deepened the oil pan by 3 inches which will now hold 8 qts...... I run it low with only 7 in it to prevent the oil from being whipped around. I also have baffles in the sump to prevent the oil from climbing the rear of the pan and absolutely critical.... the front of the sump is flat and straight up and down and includes a baffle to prevent to oil from running to the front of the pan. This prevents oil pressure loss just after a burnout and you slam on the brakes to stop... it was happening to me until I changed the front of the sump.

On top is an unported Torker and 750 Holley.

The ditributor is a Motorcrap (cause it was in the 304 when I bought the car) and has been modified a bit eliminating the vac. advance and making an adjustable breaker plate so I can line the rotor up to the terminals in the cap. I found out that the rotor was about 30 degrees past the terminals and when I realigned it..... the hard cranking went away. With the MSD7ML2 box, the spark was so hot it was trying to fire the next cylinder in the firing order at the same time with the rotor out of phase.

MSD Spiral core wirs, Champion RC9YC plugs gapped to .060" round out the ignition. Total timing (track and weather dependent) varies from 38-42 degrees total.

What else?

Yes.... I think the 360 has the better rod angle and makes more HP per CID than the 401... but the 401 can be built leaning more towards torque for a very stout motor.

Best run to date? 7.19 @ 94.5 at HRP in November with the 1/4 mile time of 11.38..... should have been in the 20's but I backed out at 1000 ft to try to slow down to my 11.50 index. It has run 119 in the quarter down there too!

I don't suppose you have a picture of the groove cut into the pump below the gears?

Harold and I had an accusump on his Spirit when we put the 360 in it while still autocrossing. It worked fine but when all of the oil is up on the top side and oil pressure drops, it seems to fill the accusump back up more than putting oil pressure back to the motor if the pressure drops long enough to use up the 2 quarts it reserves.

Drawbacks to everything!

For prelubing? They work great.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh. well that sux. guess it all comes from somewhere yaknow? hey did ya'll do anything to the fuel injection on the 4.0? or was it stock?

We used the later throttle body and opened up the manifold to match it.... bigger bore. The injectors were factory and we used the Mopar Performance ECU. I built the wiring harness for it and after discovering a little glitch in their system..... without the EGR solenoid wired in it wouldn't self test and kept coming up with a faulty ECU code, we simply put the solenoid on it and it worked fine then. Other than that.... bone stock! We also found out that you can't use plastic drier duct as a fresh air intake. The motor literally sucked the thing flat and the car would die when the RPM's got up to around 4000 !!! We had to use a very stiff duct for fresh air to keep it happy. We did slot the holes in the crank sensor also to add a little of advance to the timing. From the factory it is locked in at 10 degrees base timing so we fudged it a bit. The knock sensor prevented detonation and the MP ECU really perked the thing up. It acts bone stock below 3500 rpm but above that it changes the fuel and timing curves and the motor comes on like gangbusters!!!

G.B,Thank you so much for your recipe on your 360. your a mountain of knowlage man.