highperformanceamc

[69Rebel]

Alright, let's get this oiling shit sorted out once and for all. Spud, DRAMC, this question is for you guys.
I'm thinking about building a 401 for about 500hp/6500 rpm, it might be called upon to run at that rpm for several minutes at a time. I've already decided to go with an external pickup, small hole cam bearings, small hole pushrods, solid cam and higher capacity oil pan. I've already been thrashed on for thinking about the oil line mod.
Should I:
Enlarge the pass. side oil galley?
Enlarge the three rear main oil holes from the galley to the bearings?
Drill holes from the mains into the drivers side oil galley? (I like this one)
All of the above, or some combination of the three, or something I didn't even mention?

[spudster]

honestly, for continuous operation like that I WOULD DRY SUMP IT. farting around with a street machine or moderate drag machine is ok with a wet sump. If I were gonna do any serious high speed racing, on road, off road, in the mud, hillclimb, whatever, with steering, braking , bouncing, forces.. a wet sump ain't gonna do it. as far as block mods go, whatever makes you feel good. there really ain't anything wrong with what amc designed. most problems anyone is gonna encounter is sucking air with a wet sump, and the only mod which can fix that is a dry sump. hey I just spent an hour composing a much more detailed response and this fucked up website lost it, so there's a start.

[spudster]

ok heres more. if I was FORCED to race with a wet sump, it would be the deepest, wettest, best baffled system I could come up with. I would have drains on the valve covers. I would have some form of crank windage tray. Sounds like you have a pretty good plan, but I think the block oiling isn't the problem in most cases. not that i would ignore it, I always spend my free time radiusing sharp corners and checking out the block passages, timing cover and oil pump cover passages etc. THERE IS NO BLANKET ANSWER FOR OILING MODS! the actual form of racing is a major consideration. DRY SUMPS ARE BEST, wet sumps are not. If I was thinking about racing in a format where cornering, braking, bouncing was encountered, and the rules would not allow a dry sump, I'D TELL THEM TO GET FUCKED AND NOT WASTE MY TIME AND MONEY SCATTERING ENGINES!!!

[69Rebel]

. If I was thinking about racing in a format where cornering, braking, bouncing was encountered, and the rules would not allow a dry sump, I'D TELL THEM TO GET FUCKED AND NOT WASTE MY TIME AND MONEY SCATTERING ENGINES!!!

God Spud, you are still my hero! Good advice, all of it. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

but I think the block oiling isn't the problem in most cases. not that i would ignore it, I always spend my free time radiusing sharp corners and checking out the block passages, timing cover and oil pump cover passages etc.

I TOTALLY agree, and do these things as well. I also make feed the hole in the block match the shape of the hole in the gasket/cover.......the block hole is round(and small), while the gasket/cover is a larger "D" shape.

I don't like the idea of the smaller hole in the cam bearings. I personally don't feel it's worth restricting oil to the cam bearings, especially when using heavy valve springs. I also don't think the smaller hole pushrods are a good idea either. Many don't realize that the oil up top helps cool the valve springs. I'd make the drain back lines Spud talked about before I used restrictive pushrods.

Really, the bottom line is do what YOU feel comfortable with. If you want to do every mod known to man, that's fine, it's your engine. I've had good luck doing what I do, so that's what I stay with.

[69Rebel]

but
Really, the bottom line is do what YOU feel comfortable with. If you want to do every mod known to man, that's fine, it's your engine. I've had good luck doing what I do, so that's what I stay with.

Well, that's why I asked. I wanted some recommendations from guys who race and build motors. I'd rather not get answers from people who might be trying to sell me something. Tell me what you do with your motor and would you feel comfortable, say mudbog, hill climb, or sand drag racing with that?

[spudster]

what I do with my stuff is pretty basic. I've covered it all to a good degree. for the type of racing I do, what I consider moderate level drag racing, I cover the bases in the block galleys, I have a long 1/4" rod with a slot cut in it. I load some 80 grit emery strip in the slot and roll it up, and mount the other end of the rod in a drill. I work the emery cloth/ hone rod down the pass side oil galley and enlarge/ polish the hell out of the hole, particularly the point in the middle where the holes meet up. I also get in the 90 degree areas with carbide burrs and radius those sharp corners as much as possible. I do like Drag and d-shape the entry, and you can get in the corner between the entry hole and the front galley and radius that corner real nice. when I'm done radiusing the two corners the oil flow makes, I use my homemade hone and spend too much time honing the fire out of the front galley. I don't do anything to the other lifter galley or the short intersecting galley to it. when Im done doing that, I yank out the old cam bearings and clean all the trash I just filled the smaller holes up with, and sometimes put in a lifter galley line if whoever owns the engine wants it. I did some of mine this way. Anyways, then I go to the suction passage , radius the sharp corner, and hone the hell out of that passage. I spend about a whole day doing this stuff, I dunno if it helps, it hasn't hurt. when I'm done with all that crap, I'm ready to take it to the machine shop for cleaning boring honing etc. I have done some bonehead testing before and after detailing the galleys with a water hose, and I can testify that I get a bunch more flow from out the rear galley plug hole with a garden hose held against the inlet port on a modified block. yeah I know, science it aint. I do the same bit to the passages in the timing and oil pump cover. I prefer the later pump cover with one less 90 degree turn. I always eliminate the filter bypass for full oil flow filtration. I always elarge the passages from the cam to the dist gear, and once again it is surprising how much more oil you can get spraying out the four holes in the cam gear with a little bit of enlarging on the cam sprocket and fuel pump excentric{ i don't enlarge the cam gear holes} If I'm gonna run a milodon street {internal} pickup tube- before I assemble anything, I make sure the tube will thread in six or seven threads. if it don't, I hit the hole with a pipe tap till I can thread it in deeper. the reason is this, if you thread the milodon tube in, normally you can only get it in three threads before it gets real tight. if you leave it like this, it will crack in the threads and fall right off. of course enlarging the hole will ruin the hole for a stock pickup, but that ain't a concern for me, cuz the stock pickup looks to be pretty sucky to me. DON"T get sucked into running a canton pan with internal canton pickup. the pickup ain't long enough and will suck air way too soon. the milodon street setup has always worked for me. IT WILL SUCK AIR IF YOU DO A BURNOUT AND ROLL OUT AND HIT THE BRAKES. so even it ain't perfect. but it's the best over the counter setup aside from an external pickup, which ain't perfect either. add a wix filter, and that pretty much what has worked for me. oh also, my machinist works in a reasonable bearing clearance, which gives me about 20 psi hot and full pressure{60-65 lbs} at about 2500 rpm. I believe more pressure than that is a waste.I will not use a hi pressure spring in the relief ass'y. I used one in klvn8r's gear eater, and if anyone brings me another, I'll throw it in the creek. yeah I coulld go on, but for you, bonuncing up hills, mud, ruts and god knows what, I truly believe you will spend less in the long run with a well designed and fabricated wet sump. Yes they are pricey, but so is an engine. I bet a good segment of your competition may have them. serious off road racers run them. not so serious guys... I dunno about them. you should see what the competition runs and how often they waste a lower end. I say again, a dry sump will keep a crank alive, a wet sump is another story. neither one will handle a car being on it's roof, but the wet sump is still a lot better bet.

[Captain Awesome]

I don't like the idea of the smaller hole in the cam bearings. I personally don't feel it's worth restricting oil to the cam bearings, especially when using heavy valve springs. I also don't think the smaller hole pushrods are a good idea either. Many don't realize that the oil up top helps cool the valve springs. I'd make the drain back lines Spud talked about before I used restrictive pushrods.

Same here. The engineers knew, or atleast should have known, how much oil these mills need to live. So when you're putting more pressure on it, I'd think you'd need more oil, not less. Unless all you're doing is a 1/4 at a time and rebuilding every year, restricting isn't the way to go.

Then less oil on the cam bearings. added pressure of lift, duration and seat pressure, what about friction? power lose? Or am I looking at it at a spreadsheet engine guru level?